The Force...

[Azazel]

I was in a philosofical mood yesterday, and i was giving some toughts about the force.
Let me see if I can make my ideas come out clear in english...
The Jedi´s say that they should be one with the living force.
But the living force must be a name for the entire whole of the force, not only a part of it.
If the jedi only use the "light" side of the force, why do they call it the living force ?
As oposite, the sith use the dark ( no " this time) side of the force!
Is it the dark side, the "dead" side, as opposing the living force?
But there cannot be such a thing as a "dead force"...
And, it is well known that only the sith can use "both" sides of the force... so that leads to a problem...
Are the sith the only ones to use the full range of the force? The living force ?
Are the jedi just trying to fool people around when they give shades to the force and in the end its only one single united force, and the only true yelders of it are the sith ? And that they can only use a part of it !
Am I making a storm on a glass of water, or just made a philosofical breaktrough ?

Any insights on this...

[Master Thompson]

The Living Force and the Cosmic Force are believed to be two different things. The Cosmic Force is what you are used to seeing and hearing about in the movies. That is where the Sith & Jedi abilities originate. The Living Force is that which is the Life Force/Life Energy that penetrates, binds and sustains every living thing. The Cosmic Force is the Parent to the Living Force.

The Cosmic Force is the grand quilt. Every life gets keep a square from that warm and soothing quilt for their very own know as the Living Force. How they use it as they live is their choice. The Jedi & the Sith both agree as to "what" the Force is. It is that which is giving you the clarity of mind to read what I have written. It is that which is giving your the clarity of mind to assimilate, process and regergitate the thoughts and feelings you have as you continue to read what I have written. Some say it is the very soul or spirit we manifest.As we live, we feel detached, like something is missing, there is a place we need to be, we long for something we do not understand for what and why, incompleteness! When we die, our square is reunited with the whole of the Force and perhaps we do it all again.

The Jedi & the Sith agree that is the juniversal/cosmic energy that creates, sustains, surounds us, penetrates and binds all life that is the Cosmic Force. Life Force...life energy is the Force. Azazel, In your minds eye, see your body from outside of it. Do you see you? Do your bones hold you up? Do your joints keep you flexible? Do your organs just do their jobs? Do your muscles protect your organ machinary? Do your veins and arteries just send blood and nutrients throughout your body? Why does the acid in your stomach not just erupt? Your brain fires elctro impulses throughout your wet, internal body directing your movements and involentary impulses with no internal shock. All because of a organ computer chip known as the brain orchastrates this? This is the will and work of the Force! We do not just fall down or our insides just slide from thier positions not because they are "fascined" or fixed in place by the scientific & medical (logical) reasons, but because of the unseen power source known as Life Force, Spirit, Soul ....the Force.

Now...does the Force have two sides. From my studies, I don't know if I endorse the two sides of the Force position. The Jedi seek balance with this energy, to become allies with it. A portion of it is in us and we which our portion to know it's parent source so-to-speak, to commune and have it interaction with the whole from time to time. We only seek to bare witness to this fellowship and perhaps serve as the vessel for the meeting of both. In return, the Force grants us the wisdom to know how to benefit from it's soothing calm and serenity so that we can apply it to our daily lives, for knowledge, serenity and defense if need be. This is known as the Lightside of the Force, but is it a true "side" of the Force?

(Ancient) Sith that have been trained in the ways of the COSMIC Force from a Dark Side origination do not learn this, they do not understand this fellowship. They are taught that the Lightside abuses the true intention of the Cosmic Force and squanders it's potential for trivial means and it is the not the true way to use the Force. They are taught that the Force is yes, power that binds life and sustains it but it can be used as an awsome weapon! "If you learn to turn your fear in to anger (BOOK OF ANGER - PALPATINE) and hate you can manifest the Force into abilities and actions that are "considered to be...unnatural." Great emotions such as fear, anger, hate and pain provide the fuel for such power, but in order to sustain such power one must continue to fuel the Dark Side with dark emotions. One must always continue to be in a pertual state of hate, anger and rage to benefit from the power of the Force.

Think of it like this...a guitarist plays with a Gibson...sounds good, talented and what-have-you...but with an amp...he/she could really send a message. Their are two sides to the person and how you view and connect to the Cosmic Force is like an amp to your instrument. So does the Force have two sides? I don't thinks so, I think it is the person that has the two sides.

(Please excuse spelling.)

[Azazel]

Well, that was enlightning.
I too tend to agree that there is only "one" force, but i dont see it as beeing a entity that see´s things in wrong or right, just plain exists.
what one does with the powers given by the force is what originate the dark and light shades of it...but even then, that is dependable on the eye of the beholder...
I dont see the selfish use of the force as beeing a dark thing...
Its hard not to have confused feelings towards somerthing that has to believed and not plain, cientenficaly measured.
All in all, the force is like a gun, you can be a "police" and use it to keep the peace, or be the oposite and use it to "not moraly accepted ends".
even good cops can go bad, and i never liked to dress in blue anyway...

[Master Thompson]

That to is a really, good point!

[Azazel]

Simple answers to complicated answers.

[Master Thompson]

One more thing,

You wrote that you see the Force as "sideless" energy. It just is, it just exists, I agree with you. This is a paradox I don't think the writers at Skywalker Ranch have confronted. If the Force.....IS....then how does it have two sides? That would mean the Force is conscience....it would suggest choice and choice suggests intelligence. Thus that is why I teach the Dark Side as a personal choice from within the man/woman not a peril of the Force.

However, this brings in the question: If the Force is another name for the Soul or Spirit and the spirit (which we all have) and soul is tentatively identified as that "other voice" in our heads that pervents us or sends us into or away from danger, good fortune, love and romance, wearing this outfit or new employment opportunites ect, and we know that this voice, this intuition so to speak is an extension of our "here and now" selves and clearly diferenciates from our thought, (the back and fourth we experience in our heads before we make a decision,) then does the soul/spirit manifest intelligence? Is the Force in control our destiny's and fate? When that voice in your head tells you to do wrong, or take advantage of a situation for personal gain, is that the Dark Side? If so, then we may not be in control. Hence our passions, desires, wants and needs may be a derivitive of our predisposition to a specific side of the Force, which is why some of us embrace the Dark Side and other embrace the Light Side because for some reason that we can not explain, for some reason we feel we are more attracted to that side of the Force. If for our soul/spirit which is hypothosized that the piece of the Force the resides in us is a piece the side of the Force we lean toward. If this is the case, then fate and destiny are not up to us....

Hmmm...

[Azazel]

I must disagree on that one.
I dont feel the force as a sapient entity,its rather more like a stream.its flows, its sorrounds, but doesnt have a will or the hability to influence.
as i say, its like a gun.
If let alone on the table, whont shoot by itself
if someone with good intentions will grab it, it may be used for protecting
if someone with bad intentions will grab it, it will use it for bad actions.
in inexperient hands, it can go both ways, but in the end it is always the individual that chooses what to do with it, not the gun/force.
The spirit is something very else, and that yes, can influence the way how each one uses the force.
double hmmm

[Darth Cassus]

rises his hand in the air and says Why

[Azazel]

Why what ?

[Darth Cassus]

just why and that all

[Azazel]

The purpose of a forum is to discuss ideas.
This Force subject is, to my point of view, a most interesting and educating subject.

[Master Thompson]

Why, why? What is it that you find confusing?

[Darth Cassus]

why why not why if u used the socratic method then I would ask u why dont u know why master jedi?

[Empress Palpatine]

Something like predestination, Master Thompson? We used to debate predestination vs. free will way back when I was at Covenant College. I suppose the debate would reasonably occur as regards the Force. Even the Star Wars films speak of "destiny."

Question: Did Anakin have free will as to whether he joined the Sith? Or was it predestined?

[Darth-Trayer]

Something like predestination, Master Thompson? We used to debate predestination vs. free will way back when I was at Covenant College. I suppose the debate would reasonably occur as regards the Force. Even the Star Wars films speak of "destiny."

Question: Did Anakin have free will as to whether he joined the Sith? Or was it predestined?

Thats a hard question. One way of looking at it is, Anakin did bring balance to the force, maybe not when the jedi wanted him to but he did. The purge had to happen, there was too many jedi and the good was out balancing the evil.
the other way to look at it is, if the jedi were paying attention more to Anakin maybe it would have never would have happened. But then you go back to the first statement and then the force would be unbalanced. So who knows :)

Trayer

[Azazel]

Question: Did Anakin have free will as to whether he joined the Sith? Or was it predestined?

That is shurely one of those fundamental questions on everyones life, and not even the religions all agree on that one.
I truly believe that our life´s story is...outlined,but most of it is chosen by us.
Fate has its fare share to say, but the final word is always ours to say.
Anakin chose its way, but in the end, it came out to fulfill the destiny.


Trayer, that overall idea is a very good one, would you like to explore it further ?





Celebrating 200 posts.:)

[Darth-Trayer]

the whole statement or just part of it, and if just a part, which one?

Trayer

[Master Thompson]

Very clever Darth Cassus and good Point to you as well Darth Trayer.

Question: Empress Palpatine raised: Did Anakin have a choice or not:
Answer: I don’t think any more, I know he didn’t have a choice. However, I feel it is not due to some cosmic existential reasoning of predetermined destiny. I think it is much simpler than that, a much more realistic reason that WE can all understand! Let me give you some insight…

George Lucas wrote his destiny as predetermined, so the question now should be, was it a cosmic influence or a real world influence? You see, for every situation that positioned young Skywalker toward his eventual destiny, there were an equal amount of missed opportunities for him to take an alternate path. He could not see this because of a very simple reason. I feel in the tragedy of Anakin (in my opinion,) was never OUT of his control and wiser and smarter people around him saw a classic behavior and exploited it. You see, Anakin Skywalker is absolutely representative of a classic behavioral pathology which we all know and love know as.....narcissism! Take a child's behavior up to the age of typically 12 but these days in most cases their 26 and that's narcissism. It is because of this that Anakin could not turn from his path because his need to save Padme consumed him. Like a wealthy person might commit fraud or murder to continue a lavish lifestyle, Anakin turned to the Dark Side to continue his lifestyle. Plain and simple!

Let’s apply some of today's known standards of behavioral psychology and sociology, one can correlate Anacin’s impulsive behavior and seemingly lack of appropriate methodical judgment to his predisposition to the "what if" factor, FEAR right? (Which you and I…WE all know. This in itself is no great mystery right?) You see; Anakin is a classic representation of what happens to gifted, sheltered children and adults for that matter, that are abruptly confronted with change, loss any type of attachment and/or any sense of familiarity. However fear alone doesn’t make one narcissistic. Let’s look at a few classic property’s that are consistent with this pathology.

(And Please: Not everyone that finds these characteristics similar are classified a narcissist, it is those that act in interest of self-serving means and by any means necessary to continue a status-quo or to gain and personal advantage.)

1) Only child raised by a single parent.
2) Raised as a slave, poor in lived in an impoverished community, very little law, education and civility.
3) The boy seemed to look to the heavens (detachment via imagination) as a means to cope with his reality...looking to the stars as opposed to dealing with the "here and now." Which are all things researchers have correlated this behavior to symptoms of narcissism.
4) No one ever put these in check. It seems no one every sat down with the boy and explained, (like Uncle Owen did for Luke in EP 5) that life is real with real problems and real responsibilities.
5) Must leave everything he has ever know and loved for the unknown and then be told initially he is not Jedi material, he is inadequate to the Jedi Standards. He stands alone now, it is him against them.

Every human being has similar characteristics. Imagine an internal compass that resides inside of you. North being harmony, calm and goodness…South being bad, self-serving and contemptuous. What makes a personals moral and ethical compass point north or south is simply a persons ability to rationalize his/her behavior and that is exactly what Anakin does…he rationales his quandaries which afford him the luxury of ignorance. At the end of the day he is a Jedi, he was taught and trained to identify these emotions, feelings and passions and he decided to ignore his training and stay the course of disaster. Why? Because it served his need to do so! Disobeying the Order was necessary, it had to be done, and seeking any means in which to save Padme’s life was also expectable. He knew he was doing wrong, he confronts and admits this truth. Anakin Skywalker to me represents real life narcissism…a characteristic he represents what happens when we get it wrong in our minds and hearts and act accordingly. For this the Emperor senses his confusion, his inability to responsibly control his fears and impulses, all the Emperor needed to do is simply gain the boys trust and act as a friend. Name one worldly man/woman that has every possessed true power and dominion over others that didn’t have the same beginnings as Anakin Skywalker. Now when we are confronted as they are caught doing illegal, unspeakable acts to quench their appetite for whatever selfish delight we know institutionalize them, incarcerate them or go to war and remove them.

In my opinion, there was no great mystery as Anakin was concerned. Though I am touched by the tragedy of the story and in awe of his power and talent, I see me in him, you might see you in him for he is the embodiment of what can happen with your fear, anger and need to control everyone and everything around you get the better of you.

”To control a powerful beast you attempt to negotiate control, you show it consistent compassion, love and acceptance for its faults and short-comings. Gain its trust and you control the beast!”

[Empress Palpatine]

You present much to chew over....This I will do.

[Azazel]

You present much to chew over.

Yes, master Thompson, can you cut it down a bit ?
we are not all english born speakers, nor lawyers.


Trayer, the last part of it.

[Master Thompson]

In the future I will be mindful to keep my posts...proportionate to the dialog! Sorry...

[Darth-Trayer]

the other way to look at it is, if the jedi were paying attention more to Anakin maybe it would have never would have happened. But then you go back to the first statement and then the force would be unbalanced. So who knows :)

Trayer

Well it boggles me that for someone so special to the jedi you would think they would have watched him more and like master Thompson said , why didnt they sit down with him, they knew he was a older child, then when they normally start training. It might have been better if they went about his teaching a bit differnt, he was a differnt case. Also they knew he had emotional issues, why didnt they take any time to deal with that. When yoda first say him he stated he had great fear(understandable) it seams they never tryed to deal with that. The other thing I noticed, if they put him with someone a little bit different then Anakin, it might have helped also. Someone to more balance him. He was a very emotional child, a master that might have been in more control of his feelings and more calmer. Unfortnally Anakin was alot like Kenobi.

Trayer

[Azazel]

Well, that is truly something to think about.
But maybe the jedi, mindfull of the things to come, were not alllowed to do all that because it mayght change the corse of things to be, that needed to be.

[Darth-Trayer]

I don't think they wanted the purge, but it was necessary, or I think, not cause I hate jedi but to bring balance to the force

Sometimes evil is necessary, people dont like to admit it, but sometimes it's the only way
Trayer

[Azazel]

Sometimes evil is necessary
Trayer


Right on. That is the feeling.

[Empress Palpatine]

Well, I sat back to mull it over. If a post is long and complex, I sometimes ruminate over it through the day. Master Thompson, your analysis has implications. What category of persons are often raised by a single parent, have slavery somewhere in their past, possibly both overprotected and subjected to rude shocks or threats? Isn't that the typical background of black persons? (in real life). Oftentimes, they have considerable resentments about their disadvantaged past. Is it their fault? Anakin had a background much like the underclass of any society. What if George Lucas had made Anakin a black person, would the analysis be different? Would he be blamed less or more?

The level of resonsibility of a person in their moral choices would have a great deal to do with their class (and possibly race) background. If Anakin had been a little black slave boy standing before the Jedi and scrutinized, would the Jedi be called racists? Because it was not a race matter in this story, it could be said that the Jedi were classist.

[Azazel]

With a bit more effort, one could say that missing a father figure would made him a possible gay.
Those evaluations based on life harsh conditions are a bit...complicated to sustain, from my point of view...

[Master Thompson]

Empress that is a very astute consideration! Very astute indeed! Had Lucas casted a black character...that would have been interesting to see. Please keep in mind, characteristics I mentioned are not a cause but are classic symptoms. Most people adapt, work hard and change their situation, some do not and they adopt a me against the world ideology, somebody owes me something mindset. To me it looks like Anakin had the brew of a Tyrant in him from year 8.

As far as him being gay....lol....lol....I don't know about ALLLLLLL that! LOL! Azazel....how the heck are you seing or sensing...you know what....LOL I don't wanna know!

[Azazel]

Im happy im made you laugh, but, whats so funny ?
Have i sayd something out of this world ?
If you take a deep look, if Padme wasnt around, him and Obi-wan..."ohh master, can I hold your light saber...?" " ohhh, butt yes young Padwan.." etc etc
( sorry Mrs.Vader)

[Darth-Trayer]

If you take a deep look, if Padme wasnt around, him and Obi-wan..."ohh master, can I hold your light saber...?" " ohhh, butt yes young Padwan.." etc etc
( sorry Mrs.Vader)

VERRY BAD, funny, But bad

I'm verry sorry for this and I wasnt going to show this but now I have to.

http://forcebaby.ytmnd.com/

Trayer