On the subject of Creating a Sith "Doctrine"

[Darth Sidious]

From an old, yet wise Jedi :twisted:

On the subject of Creating A Sith Doctrine....

It is with great respect to your community that suggest the following:

"Who Gives A Crap!"

Take what has been provided to you and create a new way! That is why you are all here isn't? To learn the ways of the Sith and the Dark Side of the Force. But I suspect it is more about learning a........"Shadow" Side of the Force for I feel there aren't any murders, sicko's and killers on this board. (I hope!)

I was watching the interviews on the other Disk of EPIII and G.L. said straight out that "Darth Sidious" (The Character) Is the Devil. That is actually word for word. The Sith ancient Sith were EVIL. But you guys are not. (Again...jumping to HUGE persumptions over here.)

The Force through the Sith teachings of giving in and embracing your strength, emotions and passions, let me ask you? What's wrong with that? NOTHING! Absolutely nothing if you want the truth...see in the real world, I train my Jedi to acknowledge their, fear, anger, agression, passion, emotion and strength but instead of unleashing it.....channel it. The ancient Jedi failed here, trying to control human emotions is like trying to keep a puppy from pissing on the carpet.....stuffs gonna happen! It is dealing with the emotions a Jedi strives to balance where as you Sith just through caution to the wind.

I say screw it and build your own way, but you must pay hommage to the those that came before you...the teachings and the ideology. Every faith or spirtual way in order for it work needs a frame of reference, a visual if you will. If you do this...you will be fine and I encourage you!
Feel free to discuss, destroy, or present ideas for what you think should be in such a document, if you are interested in their being one

[Darth-Trayer]

well first of all we need to decide the basics. Are we all sith there or shadow. There is a difference.
I personally are more shadow than sith.......but I am still part sith :)

Trayer

[Darth Sidious]

Id personally say im more Sith, but i do have an interest in various of the aspects of the light. Knowing ones enemy... :twisted:

[Azazel]

I propose that a board should be created, were every LOGGED member would post only "one line" vision of beeing a sith, at a time, something like a nevending story.
the first lines should be well know issues about the sith, posted by Lord Sidious.
(beeing a admin does takes responsabilities...)

From my point of view, im a full pledged dark sider. no shadow or doubts on my mind.
And, as you all have seen, i make no restrains in posting my ideas, even if they sometimes look agressive.

Lets get it on...

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

On my own web site I put a breif statement on what I believe are Sith beliefs. I also have a short thing called " A Note to the Sith " which is a short thing on a core Sith belief. I let all see it but I have learned it is wiser to tell people to look at it there rather than write it here or on any other site. The Sith belief is called " Sith Beliefs.

[Darth Devious]

Mrs. Darth Vader.

Could you please post a link to your site? I have never seen it.

Thanks!

[Empress Palpatine]

I noticed that if you click on the person's name on this board (left), it gives a choice to go to their home page. It took me awhile to figure that one out. This board works a little differently than most others I have been to.

[Darth Devious]

I noticed that master thompson does not think that we can evil because we arent murders or sickos. An evil person does not have to be a killer to be evil.


I wonder if he ever read my response on the other thread...

[Azazel]

Im pretty shure he did.
But he has a very peculiar way of seeing the force, but hes not saying that we cannot be evil just because we dont go around killing people, hes just making a "statement" on a general way of thinking.
Hes only saying that we --» this forum, should have its own sith doctrine, and not some film based rigid way of acting.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Mrs. Darth Vader.

Could you please post a link to your site? I have never seen it.

Thanks! My web site address is; http://users.arczip.com/redtailedhawk
I hope you like it Darthdevious.

[Darth Devious]

Thank you Ms. Vader.


And Azazel, if Master thompson wants to see a sith doctrine, maybe he should look at my post on the other thread.

[Azazel]

I know that you posted your version of a sith doctrine, but i think he ment a global sith doctrine.
We have not donne that so far.

[Master Thompson]

(Yes Azazel, you are correct by-the-way, that is what I meant.)

If one is to begin from scratch, the creation of a faith or a set of ideals and/or principles a group is to live by, than the ONE/GROUP/ORDER/COUNCIL, the leader/associates must first identify the three main points of the intended doctrine for a new group...

1) WHO ARE WE? WE ARE SITH!

2) WHY ARE WE? WHY ARE WE? WE ARE BECAUSE....!!!

3) WE BELIEVE IN .....

First you must identify who you are and why you are! You know you are Sith but (with all due respect,) That comes with some baggage as does the Jedi in some respects, you were WRITTEN to be the nemesis to the Jedi Order as were we to the Sith. Hey that is fun and great but that has NO substance for either of us. We know the ancient Sith and Jedi hated one another because of thier disagreement as to the interpretation of the Force and how it is to be used. (Sound familiar?)

Well, here we are in the real world and we still do disagree as to how the Force should be interpreted and used but we are not killing each other to enforce our positions. So...the question remains WHY ARE WE?

As Jedi, if we followed every tradition, this would be im possible for we would have to scoop up children at birth, live a life of abstonance in all areas of twentith century culture, roam the streets in public wearing the traditional robes of the Jedi and turn the other cheek when someone or does something bad. Uh...nope, not going to happen for it can't happen...we live in the real world so we have to Take the ESSENCE of the Jedi, the basic TENENTS of the Jedi and the IDEALS of the Jedi and morph them to fit Jedi living and working in the real world and at the same time keeping true to the Jedi way as it was intended.

So in the same context, if you start with the Sith Code....this I think is the right place to begin. Then come the Sith Ideals and Principles, are the applicable to Sith today in the real world? Can some stay, some go, some be altered? But most importantly, whatever you decided, you must believe in it 1000% for belief is what makes your way real, "your focus determines your reality," - Qui Gon Jinn.

You are nothing without believe, faith in your ways and your ideals and obedience to the cause. Once you have this then approach the purposed doctrine like a business plan:

What is the Program or Plan?

How will it be structured?

Who will be key and in what sectors?

Where is the base of operations?

Who is in charge?

What is the chain of command and what are the titles?

How will the society function based on our beliefs?

What will do and what we don't do?

How do reconstitue membership (Another obsticle you have to consider for Lucas wrote during the Sith Order of BANE that this only to be ONE Dark Lord and One Apprentice, do you want to continue a tradition that you have nothing to do with?)

Who are our Dark Side writers?

Who are our Society writers?

Who are our Sith philosphers?

Who are our Sith Instructors and What material will be taught?

What is required knowledge?

What is the penalty for disobedience?

What is the reward for obedience?

I mean an organized group is nothing more than a mini society, think of it like "Sith Town," after you have determined Who you are, what you stand for and you have a firm belief in you core values, you must provide leadership, rules and organization and a means to enforce, some type of faith based initiatives, "the Sith way" and the structure will fall into place. It won't be over night, it won't be perfect right out of the gate and it will take patience and time to get it right. You will put things into play thay may not work at first or may need to be rewritten...whatever the point is it will take the GROUP's belief and desire for the core principles and ideals to function. YOU MUST BELIEVE!

Excuse the spelling please.

[Azazel]

I will do my best to answer all of those after the weekend.

[Empress Palpatine]

Sith thought is in the process of development. This site seems to be in the early stages. Other sites broke some ground in the past. After being on Sith sites (mainly this one and Sithism) and also sites featuring both Jedi and Sith, I feel that Sith as of yet is not fully developed as a doctrine in our galaxy. So far, it is a loose set of ideas. It is like communism before Marx. First we need our "Marx," our "Engels," our "DeLeon," then our "Lenin" and "Stalin." In the early and mid-1800's, communists were only a handful of people bantering in a room and discussing and arguing about vague theories. It was a few decades before it solidified into a core doctrine. Marx was the one who gave it its shape.

This is the time for all those Sith authors to get cranking! Mostly people have been posting a few sentences here and there. Now it is time for books and essays (which I assume is the reason for the Holocron?"). I myself have a few things scribbled in notebooks but as of yet have not pulled it together. Personally, I hope that whatever is developed pulls in information about ancient religions that are Sithlike but without losing that connection to the movie. I have read some pretty good material by people that are well versed in exotic religions (Crowley, Witchcraft, Norse, Celtic) but these tend to dismiss the movie. I was sort of hoping to have both.

For starters, just what are people looking for here? The movie Sith only? Real world only, no movie connection? or a combination of the real plus the movie?

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Since to me there is only one rule that a Sith must obey and that being the no power wasted rule a Sith is free flowing. As to the two there are, how about each Sith pair travels in two's. One being Master the other Apprentice. I think as a religion the Sith should be up to each individual to decide his/her Sith path. I do not like organized religion. Once a religion becomes organized it becomes corrupt. Organization is for Sith Politics. As far as world organization it would be after the order of Lenin/Stalin another words one world communism. This would creat a state strong enough on earth to equil the Death Star on an earthly scale. On my web site I talk about Sith beliefs I also go into the reasons that Anakin becomes a Sith. If you read my whole web site it does have a full doctrine of both historical materialism and esoteric truth from my point of view as a Sith. I hope this helps you Master Thompson. The link I gave to my site is earlyer on this thread.

[Darth Devious]

According to Carl Sagan, the understand of Science imparts a lot of power. I propose that sith learn to understand and use science for their own personal gains.

[Empress Palpatine]

I have the DVD of his Cosmos series. I guess one could say he had Sithlike traits. Carl Sagan did not need to cling to conventional religion due to some insecurity. He had no fear in him, not even death. I read his book CONTACT, and he did express sort of a spirituality, but of a scientific sort. (I saw the movie they made based on that book also).

[Darth Devious]

I do not think it is fair to refer to carl sagan as a sith lord. He was not motivated by personal power.

However, he did encourage the study of science, and has suggested that science gives its users power.

[SonnyBlack]

So basically your asking for "pop" ideals and virtues of the sith Master Thompson?

[Azazel]

I believe that master Thompson is asking the sith to be as organized clean and straightfoward as the jedi, but that would be distorting the true nature of the sith, in my point of view.

[SonnyBlack]

I believe that master Thompson is asking the sith to be as organized clean and straightfoward as the jedi, but that would be distorting the true nature of the sith, in my point of view.Yes I was thinking that aswell and I do agree with your point that would distort the true nature of the Sith. Before my edit I actually wrote about how things like social conventions of the proper way to act, piety and organization serve to strengthen the bonds of brotherhood, thus the light way. While such things hamper the individualistic nature of the Dark Side. So most of his "questions" wouldn't apply very well in the Sith context. However he did say...

"we live in the real world so we have to Take the ESSENCE of the Jedi."

The ESSENCE of the Sith in this context being the "watered down" pop ideals of all the members. A writing of what ideals are most common between the Sith (taken from each members writings of what they find important and why) with the most common variations of views. Which I think would be rather fun to see it developed and then a finished project. However the real question is should it be done?

[Azazel]

I think that, if it would be done it would act as a leash on the sith, for it would act as a guideline on how everyone should be, and thus taking away sith freedom.
For what i read and know of the people in this forum ( and you all rule ), mixing the ideas togueder would be like trying to mix oil and water and sand and make a homogenious liquid...
No need in trying to chase something that would but bonds on our free will.

[Darth Storm]

I have been reading this thread and thinking about all the questions raised and there are a lot of very good points.

Master Thompson has a good point about having more structured training system. I have been thinking about that.

I have been reading Darth Devious posts and he makes a good point about technology and how to use it in a Sith way. Being a computer network engineer I can see where he is coming from, although it would be good to pool our resources as to what we can make / use and how. There are also the psychological tools which we can use and we should not forget about the force / spiritual. I feel that they all have merit and all are good tools to archiving our goals.

To this end I am going to start a new thread in Alchemy & Technology labeled how to’s of Sith Technology. Which I hope that we can start discussing specifics of technology how to build and use in a Sith way. Later I will all so start threads on psychology and force / spiritual. I hope that you will all join in.

As for a doctrine of faith I am still thinking on that one.

[Master Thompson]

But a "leash" is exactly what the Sith need. If a unified doctrine and training academy is a "leash" and the Sith do not want that, then your movement is doomed. Doomed to ROLE PLAYING DEATH! I know most of you and I respect you all and I know you guys and girls are serious about your Art, but...the public?

Darth Plageus once told Darth Sidious as he watched is new Apprentice during a blood lust Sidious was currently experiencing said, "I would have killed you Palpatine if you had simply become a murdering criminal. We are Sith, we do not take lives and cause mayham just to do so. Everything we do is with purpose and clarity."

During the training of Darth Sidious, Darth Plagues saw not just talent and power but the possiblity of the man being insane with the Dark Side due to his power and talent. On many occassions Darth Plageus had to put the "stop now or it's not going to just hurt the next time," on Darth Sidious. Even the ancient Sith had an academy, a heirarchy and structure. You do not need a Sith Empire Similar to Kel-Droma and Kun or even Malik...nuts with Dark Side spunk but with no plan or order...what you need is Bane or Sidious...order and structure, purpose and cause but with doctrine and training.

Just my personal.

[Empress Palpatine]

Sith is a tricky balance and less of a well-beaten path than the "Light" religions. There is a strong urge for individual autonomy of individual Sith, and yet there is a need for certain guidance material. The balance of authority and liberty...always a hard one. I have noticed that Jedi sites tend to organize more quickly. Sometimes they hit some sort of glass ceiling where they don't know where to go next. There is much talk about having a Jedi council, and some expectation that in the act of forming one, miracles will somehow happen. I think Master Thompson has pulled it off better than some I have seen. There is dynamism still whereas some Jedi sites and even some Sith (not this one) have hit an impasse, a stagnation. This site has not stagnated. It may not be as "organized" as some, but there is still a freshness and a spark of inspiration here. New and fresh ideas come out often (unlike some that have turned into psychobabble). Forming the doctrines of Sith is an organic process. It should never be forced.

I suspect that the collection of Sith thought will come from individual writers over a period of time. There may even be different schools of Sith thought each with its lead thinker. I think the process is just beginning and will slowly unfold. I, for one, have been jotting down notes of Sith inspiration that I may one day assemble together.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

I think the Idea of haveing an organized Sith thing is not a good way to go. For every ten Sith there is ten differant oppinions on how to be one. To me the best thing to do is have everyone put in their knowledge and share it and we can all learn from each other. For example i have learned much from Set-I-Shadim, Exar Kun,Darth Devious, Azzazel and even learned from the Jedi like Master Thompson and Diana. Darth Sidious also put much knowledge on this board. I think many should add what they know to the pot of knowledge. Too many boards are frozen because an " Expert " has pushed everyone else asside and effectively silanced free thought. This stagnates things. I like the idea of each person has a spot where they are good at and knowledgeable at. They each talk about the subject that they know about. The others will learn because there are always people who know a subject well. Each person will then have a place in this board where they feel they get to teach at the same time each person will get to be an apprentice on the things they do not know about and can learn from the others here. For example on the message board called "Force Fallowers United" I am a Sith guide on the Totems section because I know about animal totems. I am also there because the founder of the site asked me to do Totems lectures. I havent put them here because I do not know if people are intersted in that or not. If you want to see my Totems lectures, they are at; http://jediofamerica.proboards44.com/

When you get to the home page scroll down until you hit the section called Sith Totems. Empress Palpatine has lectures under the title Sith Tarot. Let us know if you like these lectures or not.

[SonnyBlack]

Sith Scholars of the world unite! ;) Personally I like Mrs. Vader's idea the best. Each person here has certian expertise in areas (studied the area and will continue to study) that others do not. I think that by discussion each member may choose their topic (that has revalence to sith study) in a gentlemanly fashion and post on the topic in a scholarly and scientific manner while open to discussion. In this way the wealth of knowledge rises to the top without all the politics, the point is knowledge is it not? Looking through this site I must say is uninspiring with the lack of Philosophical and Worldy study that has been gathered. Call me crazy but I really don't give a sh*t about the imperial ground forces or fake lightsaber construction!

MY areas of study that will be relevant (self-explanatory) to Sith Study include

Psychology- Majored in it but later drop, still read pyschological books, articles and one of my closest friends is a psychologist.
Philosophy- Took many classes in college, spend years reading philosophical works and study.
History- B.A. in History

[Master Thompson]

Individualism goes only so far until it becomes a problem for the group. Yeah you should all have your own opinions, your own ways and your individual personalities should be allowed to flow freely however within an established contruct.

You see, I have and do dialog quite earnestly with many Sith. These Sith are Sith in philosophy, not Sith in Role Play and they often express a sinere regret that there is NO UNIFICATION or some sort of pavillion that encompass the basic structure and idealism of the Sith, from there you can branch out but at least there is a firm foundation.

Hey do what you want, it's your world your order I just think if you want to ever be taken seriously and attract serious thinkers with talent....then you have represent with serious and structured order.

[Darth Devious]

and who may I say, are these great sith thinkers?