God

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

Do Sith/Jedi have a belief in a superior being, or the Force is the only thing that guides them?

[Darth Devious]

I am an Athiest, that said, I think you will get a different answer from everyone here.

[Azazel]

What is "the Force" if not "God", and vice-versa ?
The things is that "the Force" has no human shape, as that "God" tends do be humanized in order to be more easily assimilated.
And Devious is right, a diferent answer will come from every one here.
Thats the beauty of this forum.

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

What is "the Force" if not "God", and vice-versa ?
The things is that "the Force" has no human shape, as that "God" tends do be humanized in order to be more easily assimilated.
And Devious is right, a diferent answer will come from every one here.
Thats the beauty of this forum.

Gods are often given human forms, and even emotions (Greeks & Romans). I can't believe that Jedi & Sith don't have a being to control the Force, the whole meaning of Force is too abstract to be chaotic, and uncontrollable.

[Empress Palpatine]

Gods are often given human forms, and even emotions (Greeks & Romans). I can't believe that Jedi & Sith don't have a being to control the Force, the whole meaning of Force is too abstract to be chaotic, and uncontrollable.

Curious that the Hebrews were commanded to have no graven images. It was hard for the commonfolk of ancient nations to picture a god without form, and yet, many an old religion acknowledged the Formless. In all of them, the formless was first, and form came second. Those who see gods in terms of forms usually do so in order to relate better, as a device.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

In the Force there is no chaos. The chaos is down here on the material plain. Interestingly enough both Albert Pike and Carl Sagan meet at this juncture. The Chaos of matter theory came from Albert pike in the spiritual mystical communities. Carl Sagan talks obout how great cataclisms and accidents was common in the early formation of the universe.

The Force has things in common with all of creation at the same time is very differant than all of creation. Note; here I mean creation as all with in the universe that evolved by controlled evolution. here is where the Force comes in. The Force did create eminations to empathise with how we feel. The Force itself is very detached and removed from man and is formless. The Force will use form to aid the practitioner in communication.

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

In the Force there is no chaos. The chaos is down here on the material plain. Interestingly enough both Albert Pike and Carl Sagan meet at this juncture. The Chaos of matter theory came from Albert pike in the spiritual mystical communities. Carl Sagan talks obout how great cataclisms and accidents was common in the early formation of the universe.

The Force has things in common with all of creation at the same time is very differant than all of creation. Note; here I mean creation as all with in the universe that evolved by controlled evolution. here is where the Force comes in. The Force did create eminations to empathise with how we feel. The Force itself is very detached and removed from man and is formless. The Force will use form to aid the practitioner in communication.

...Although God has some kind of overhuman logic: God punishes and favores people, Force looks completely indifferent and neutral in our world, so can hardly be compared to a God. And the other thing: does Force aid the practicioner, or/and vice versa? Maybe I am mistaken but I haven't seen much force with nobody to use it...

P.S. Define "chaos". To me, chaos is something that cannot or isn't controlled. If the Force is everything and in everything, who is there to control it?

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

I sometimes use the term God to describe the Force and the other way around. This does not mean that I am implying a human face to the Force. Remember from Episode IV Obi-Wan tells Luke that You control the Force and you obey the Force. So both are true. In the material universe there is both order and chaos. Some things happen by accident while other things are controled. again both are true. There is both order and chaos in the universe. Here is where it would not hurt to watch "Cosmos" series by Carl Sagan. It would also help to read "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike. Pike talks about the order in the universe and the chaos in the universe. This gets into the concept of diolecctics (contradictions) where things that appear to be at odds and can not exist if one does the other does not. This concept is how the universe works.

[Darth Devious]

ill second ms vaders suggestion about cosmos. But I recommend the book, not the series.

for that matter, anything written by sagan is good, including "The Demon Haunted World".

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

I read "This Demon Haunted World, Science as a candelight in the dark" by Carl Sagan. It was a good read. As is "Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin which I also read. Sagan debunks most religions and their beliefs. His arguments are strong. He was willing to study two religious views further. One being American Indian Shamanism. Two being the theory of reincarnation. I remember finding that interesting because Carl Sagan nuked many religions in that book. It reminded me of a book written by Joesph Stalin against religion. Haveing read both. When it comes to reading, I read what I can both pro-religion and against. I have read athiest material to religious theories to practical magic books. And all sorts of politics.

[Darth J'Zal]

P.S. Define "chaos". To me, chaos is something that cannot or isn't controlled. If the Force is everything and in everything, who is there to control it?
Chaos is Greek meaning 'formless matter.' "Eurynome stepped out of chaos..." That is the beginning of the creation myth. Scientists and mathematicians will tell you that there is an underlying order to chaos. This in no way implies that there is a conciousness to it. That is its nature.

Likewise, the Force is. Think of it like the internet: anyone who knows how can access it, add to it, use it for one's own agenda be it good or evil.

[Master Thompson]

Many Jedi do believe the Force is God. For a while I had a problem with this but have since learned to understand that the human mind needs points of reference if it is to learn and grow in knowledge. I simply now see that this is merely the "interpretation" of the Force with many Jedi which helps them catagorize and process the Force and it's teachings.

I personally doubt that there is a GOD. I am not saying there isn't for a Jedi keeps all possibilities open.

[Darth Occulucis]

Humans created god, not the other way round. There may be something that can be called god but no proof for it or against it. The question really is ‘who knows?’

[Darth J'Zal]

Humans created god, not the other way round. There may be something that can be called god but no proof for it or against it. The question really is ‘who knows?’
Back in high school I remember reading a re-telling of Genesis in which man created god. That has stuck with me ever since. I think it is on Jethro Tull's "Aqualung" album cover.

Having been brough up in a Christian home (mom made us go to church because it's what "good" people are supposed to do; dad is an atheist but goes to church to keep mom happy) I used to equate the Force with "God." I have since come to the realization that god(s) is (are) a figment of the human imagination. Ironically, I'm the most devout member of my family. I'm the only one who has something to "believe" in.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Many Jedi do believe the Force is God. For a while I had a problem with this but have since learned to understand that the human mind needs points of reference if it is to learn and grow in knowledge. I simply now see that this is merely the "interpretation" of the Force with many Jedi which helps them catagorize and process the Force and it's teachings.

I personally doubt that there is a GOD. I am not saying there isn't for a Jedi keeps all possibilities open.

Thank you Master Thompson. Many do believe in an after life. I am glad that you have an open mind on the subject. Does this mean you are an agnostic? Which means you do not know if their is something out there or not. A religious person believes that there is a being of some sort even if a gasious, formless being as described in the Old Testament. Hence why no engraven images. On the other hand is the athiest who says that there is nothing but us and when you are dead you are dead and you cease to exist.

Other religions such as Hindhuism and Bhudhism also talk of a formless being known as Brhama or Nervana. When the Bhudhists and Hundhus describe these places and beings it sounds strange and gasious. They talk in such a way that it sounds alive but not there and in mysterious terms because they are trying to describe the formless.

Deviod of a communist revolution to be an athiest today would be extreamly depressing because no hope is offered to the one who is an athiest unless you are a cut throat republican like Nute Gingerich.

[Master Thompson]

My Lady I simply believe in the Force and I honestly....do not go any further than that.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

My Lady I simply believe in the Force and I honestly....do not go any further than that.

That is ok. I hope that you did not get insulted by my attacking republicans. In this case I was not refering to you because on the Homeless thread on your board you did show that you at least care. The Gingerich style republican wants to exterminate all people that they disaprove of. You clearly proved that you are not one of those. Are you a Nixon style republican? That type believes in doing what is best for the nation even if it means doing something liberal. They are true conservatives.

[Darth Devious]

Ms. Vader...


You got Newt all wrong. The type of republician you speak is not at all interested in exterminating people they disapprove. They are however, interested in keep america for americans. that means keeping it for american citizens, and not degrading citizenship by allowing non-citizens to do things they should not be allowed to do, like **VOTE**, or own a gun. Some liberals want to allow non-citizens to vote, solely to enable more Dems to win elections.


You are confusing republicans with fascists. A common mistake from the left.


Really, the reason for the deepening political divisions in our country is that people are no longer listening to the other side or making compromises. That is why Pelosi feels it is ok for her to go around the world and negotiate with terrorists, when she should be negotiating with the president. Everybody is convinced that they are right, and the other side is wrong. It is just like a religious difference. Nobody wants to meet in the middle, because it means weakening their position.



Ultimately, it comes down to the most sith thing of all, ***POWER***

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

I agree with you Darth Devious on the issue of imagration. I do not believe in letting illeagals just cross the boarder and steal American jobs. It is also not good for the illeagals because they just get exploited so it is lousy for both sides. I do remember Newt Gingerich and he was about cutting all intitlements for Americans. He wanted to cut Social Security. I do not make enough money to support "Mother" who is 80 years old. Takeing her money away would be wrong plane and simple. I think it is wrong to rob from the poor only to give out Cooperate WELFARE. Goldmen and Socks (probly spelled it wrong) got money given to them via the Social Security till. This practice is supposed to be illeagal. I know this for a fact because my former REPUBLICAN congressman, Dan Miller admitted it in front of me at a town meeting I went to. I was at the microphone.

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

It's hard to imagine how we got to illegal immigrants from Force/God question, but I'll still return to it.
I think God implies consciense, conscience implies logic, logic implies predictability.
Can you say the Force is predictable?

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

It's hard to imagine how we got to illegal immigrants from Force/God question, but I'll still return to it.
I think God implies consciense, conscience implies logic, logic implies predictability.
Can you say the Force is predictable?

This is interesting. To me the Force is not predictable. Maybe other people think that they know the Force so well that they can beat the Force in a game of chess. I believe the Force to be very intelogent and there fore hard to know and predict what He will do. It would be like trying to out wit Palpatine in a plot or minipulation. Some of the other eminations (archangels, angels) are easier to know. But the top of the Keter is the most difficult to know because he is the least human in nature being formless gass of electricity of an unseen kind.

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

This is interesting. To me the Force is not predictable. Maybe other people think that they know the Force so well that they can beat the Force in a game of chess. I believe the Force to be very intelogent and there fore hard to know and predict what He will do. It would be like trying to out wit Palpatine in a plot or minipulation. Some of the other eminations (archangels, angels) are easier to know. But the top of the Keter is the most difficult to know because he is the least human in nature being formless gass of electricity of an unseen kind.

Like I said, God is (can be) predictable: e.g. a simple example -people sin, God floods the Earth.
Egyptians don't let the Jews go, God punishes the Egyptians.
Greek Gods are the best example because they had the most human emotions and behaviour, hence the predictability.
If you don't beleve (offend) The Force, you don't expect it to be more hostile to you than before?

P.S. Also, in my opinion God implies emotions. Maybe overhuman emotions, the ones we could never understand, but still some kind. Which also a reason for predictability.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

If God is so predictable than why is America getting away with far more than Sodam and Gamorah? Why is America devoid of natural effections and the Holy Spirit been recalled but yet no bowl judgements? Why the silence from heavan? Why do the wicked prevail all the time and good is no more? These are the usuall things that God is said to do yet the ***** of Babbalon still is in charge and the earth is being destroyed by man and his greed yet there is no judgement for our bad stewardship of the earth. The only thing that is happening is explainable by Carl Sagan and that is cause effect. Global warming and all its negitive effects caused by man. No devine intervention.

[Empress Palpatine]

God must be asleep. Too much Lunesta I suppose.

It cannot be proven that there is a God who intervenes in human affairs. It is funny that all the accounts of Divine intervention happened too long ago to positively verify.

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

God must be asleep... It cannot be proven that there is a God who intervenes in human affairs. It is funny that all the accounts of Divine intervention happened too long ago to positively verify.

Well, "God" is very hard to define - a god is virtually anything that no person can understand. Unfortunately, there's a lot of things people don't and can't understand. You can't say that God has plan, rules, a goal, or anything else, because it would be trying to compare God with human, which is impossible because God is not understandable. Also, if God reacted somehow on an event (like Soddom and Gommora(sry 4 spelling)), it doesn't at all means that this reaction will be the same, or even somehow similar to the first, because it will be comparing god to a single person (being?) which cannot be done, again, because God isn't understandable.

But we're too far off the topic. Like I said, God is not understandable. Is Force?

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

...a topic abandoned?

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Albert Einstien had a scientific view of the Force. This Force is neither Monevolent nor beniegn but indifferant. It is out there to be tapped by the scientist who figures it out in mathametical equasions and the lab. This view explains why the majority always appears to be right. There total mass contributes to their gravity and their pull. They win by the number of units. Another way to win is the size of one big being like Jupiter compared to the moon. Then your gravity is bigger. Of course in this analogy the best thing to be is a black hole. Any human you know seem like a black hole? obviously this is a medaphore.

[The Disciple of Ragnos]

Albert Einstien had a scientific view of the Force. This Force is neither Monevolent nor beniegn but indifferant. It is out there to be tapped by the scientist who figures it out in mathametical equasions and the lab. This view explains why the majority always appears to be right. There total mass contributes to their gravity and their pull. They win by the number of units. Another way to win is the size of one big being like Jupiter compared to the moon. Then your gravity is bigger. Of course in this analogy the best thing to be is a black hole. Any human you know seem like a black hole? obviously this is a medaphore.

O-okay...I didn't get a single word of what you said, I'm sorry.
Could some body grab a Chinese-English dictionary and help me out? (No offence, but seriously, you're getting way too scientific here :)

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Sorry about too much science. I am used to Darth Devious who is far smarter than I at science and technology. I was useing scientific terms to show a point. Now I have to figure out another way to say the same thing which might take time because if I say it esoterically that might just add to the confusion.

[Azazel]

That sounds like the theory of universal atraction to me ( by Sir Isaac Newton).
Altough i fail to understand how will ever God and science mix.
God is based on blind beliefe and science is based on open eyed questioning.