Doctor Palpatine

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

What do you think of Palpatine and his fixing Darth Vader in the suit? I thought I would ask so others can say what they think. I of course have my take on it.

[Seti-I-Shadim]

What do you think of Palpatine and his fixing Darth Vader in the suit? I thought I would ask so others can say what they think. I of course have my take on it.

This is one I debate myself. Why did Palpatine put Vader into the suit, rather than in a bacta tank to heal many of his injuries? My understanding is that bacta tanks existed at that time. I'm basing this on the following:

The insectoid Vratix of Thyferra invented bacta by mixing alazhi salve with a synthetic liquid chemical called kavam. This concoction is further mixed with a colorless viscous liquid called ambori. During the Galactic Civil War, the Empire realized the importance of bacta and shut down all satellite manufacturing centers, allowing the bacta plants on Thyferra to have a total monopoly on production. Two manufacturers reigned supreme, the Zaltin and Xucphra corporations. As a result the New Republic launched a campaign to liberate bacta production. The ensuing conflict is commonly known as the Bacta War.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/bactatank/?id=eu


It seems that this technological development was pre-Empire. (My guess)If I'm off on the technical let me know. It also seems he rushed him into the suit because he needed him immediately to track down any stray Jedi not eliminated in the purge, and possibly in connection to Darth Bane's Rule of Two.. In RotS, when Vader is on the table he is in agonizing pain. Why wasn't he made unconscious? Or did Palpatine want to imprint that pain into Vader's memory to maximize his anger? Any thoughts?

- Seti

[Darth Sidious]

Your explanation would seem to make the most sense, Palpatine would obviously want his apprentice to be full of the negative emotions, and to be as powerfull as possible.
Isnt it possible though, however unlikely, that his injuries were too severe for even bacta to fully heal?

[Azazel]

Lord Shadim is right on the part refering to the anger, but i dont believe that the bacta tank would be enought for vader, too much injuries already, destructed lungs, etc etc.
Furdermore, the suite brought Lord Vader added protection against the perils he would have to face against the enemies os the empire, for it made him imprevious to blasters, and, to some extent, light sabers too.
There is even a psicological issue to be held in consideration, a normal faced guy wouldnt strike fear in the hearts of the enemy as much as that mask and suite does.

[Seti-I-Shadim]

I would agree that bacta would have to be limited in how much it could help. I think it could have been used to repair the skin that had been burnt. Aside from that, I have yet to figure out how it could be applied to lungs, unless it was breathed in as vapors of some sort. However, there's no way it can regrow limbs such as legs.LOL

- Seti

[Darth-Trayer]

I'm not sure if the bacta tanks would help or not, but I believe if Sidious Left his care to someone/somewhere else he couldnt have kept as close of an eye on Anakin. I think he was still swayable. Now with sidious "healing" him, it was more of a dept that needed to be paid.


trayer

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

The first most obvious thing about the hospital sceen in Episode III is the fact that Vader is still in pain while the droids repair him. Lucas clearly wants you to sympathise with Vader. If you have a heart you are supposed to cry for Vader. Just as when Vader gets these injuries you are supposed to feel sad for Vader and inraged at the culprit, Obi-Wan. This is the most obvious and easy to see. There are other statements being made in the sceen also.
Forms of resurection symbolism are common in earth history. Vader is left for dead and raised by Palpatine. Befor the helmet Vader had so much power of Force use. After the helmet, Vader's powers increased 10 fold ( this is what the movie, Lucas, is showing ). There is an implied gift of power given to Vader by Palpatine. The dark side can bestow gifts as well as the light side. Befor the helmet, Vader can choke people but it was clumbsy and long. Padme took a long time to die. After the helmet, with just Vaders mind and anger he destroys the hospital and crushes everything around spareing Palpatine. This is sugnificant because this is Vader's unfocused anger. There was no spacific target of the anger, just the releaseing of anger. Vader was not mad at Palpatine because he knew deep down that Palpatine told the truth, that Vader choked Padme. As we all know in Episode V Vader can now easily choke people even over some distance. Vader no longer has to be next to the person. This is shown when Vader chokes Admiral Ozzal.
The next esoteric point in the hospital sceen is that when the droids are working on Vader, note that one droid removes a charred black thing from the throat. This is significant since the throat chaukra is the communication chaukra. It is the blue aura jurisdiction. This symbolized Palpatines removel of the control Obi-Wan had over Anakin. So when Palpatine asks " Can you hear me?" and Vader replies " Yes master". This is significant because Vader is now free to hear Palpatine.
When Vader is in the suit notice the pain is instantly gone. That is some suit. It does medical stuff we can only dream of. The suit must also perform a healing function. To our Sith relief Vader is fully functional while he stands next to Palpatine and watches the Death Star being built.
I like Azazel's coment that the suit protects Vader from the world around him and even against lazer blasts and somewhat to lightsaber attacks. This holds much esoteric truth. It represents the armor worn by the god Shiva as he brings about death and judgement and to anact Palpatine's will.

[Azazel]

I desagree with the idea that the helmet is a focalizer of vaders energy.
the choking scene is a nice example, but we shouldnt forget that 18+ years have passed since he choked padme and admiral Ozzal, time enough to master his dark side capabilities, and the scene were he crushes the robots ilustrates well that he didnt mastered the force that well, for i dont believe he would "spare " palpatine, for he was way to...disturbed,but palpatine protected himself.
Despite the fact that the helmet gives vader overhuman abilities, i still consider it a very strong psicological element, of terror, into his enemies hearts.

[Seti-I-Shadim]

Although I am not opposed to an esoteric interpretation of Vader, it does have some problems. First, motivations in the scene of his injuries.

Mrs. Vader wrote:
Lucas clearly wants you to sympathise with Vader. If you have a heart you are supposed to cry for Vader. Just as when Vader gets these injuries you are supposed to feel sad for Vader and inraged at the culprit, Obi-Wan. This is the most obvious and easy to see.

The problem is Vader did it to himself despite Obi Wan's warning not to do it because he had the higher ground. Vader retorts, "You underestimate my power!" Actually the only aspect of Kenobi's actions that did not make sense was for him not to kill Vader & put him out of his misery. Oh well, so much for Jedi compassion!:rolleyes:

A second problem I see is Mrs. Vader is clearly believing Palpatine on why Padme dies.
Padme took a long time to die.....Vader was not mad at Palpatine because he knew deep down that Palpatine told the truth, that Vader choked Padme.

My assumption was that she had died of a broken heart, not for any physiological reason. After all, the medical droids said as much. Very few people who die from choking actually name their children. LOL

The next esoteric point in the hospital sceen is that when the droids are working on Vader, note that one droid removes a charred black thing from the throat. This is significant since the throat chaukra is the communication chaukra. It is the blue aura jurisdiction. This symbolized Palpatines removel of the control Obi-Wan had over Anakin. So when Palpatine asks " Can you hear me?" and Vader replies " Yes master". This is significant because Vader is now free to hear Palpatine.


Well, this could be just a charred piece of flesh. Esotericly read , yes it is the communication chakra but not just hearing but also speaking. Additionally the attribution of the chakra is spirit and the Sankrit name of the chakra:Vissudha means purification.So there are a wide variety of interpretations available here. However, the real question is: Did Obi-Wan ever really have anything more than the most superficial control over Anakin?

Thoughts?

Seti

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Seti I Shadim
I believe Palpatine's explanation on how Padme died because A droid said Padme died of a broken heart. Droids are nonliveing beings and only run programs. Droids can not have a sixth sense. Palpatine on the other hand, is a liveing being and can sense things. I am supprised you side with Obi-Wan. Slow torture A little extream for a Jedi.
I guess as usual I am the Sith that stands alone. Here I disagree with both Azazel and Seti. If you both read my site you would see how I see it.

[Azazel]

Mrs Vader, thats why the forum is all about, to discuss ideas.
We dont have to agree with each others, or this would be a ant farm.
I agree with shadim when he says that the choking wasnt the direct causer of padmes death.
Of corse that, to have our beloved one choking us must have a poison like effect to us, and it may be considered as the cause of death.
Of corse that the robots are non sensitive thinghs, but they were jedi robots...maybe they had some sort of extra knowledge.
we must ask the jedi´s to answer this one.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

They are still robots and are made of circuts. Jedi robot or Sith robot or muggle robot. They still just run programs. Of course we are not ants. And there are bound to be disagreements. Why Do you like Padme so much? I ask because you shure want to side with Padme who betra*** Vader. I won't bother to get into that since I know you will disagree.

[Azazel]

Well...I like Padmé for a lor of reasons that dont concern the sith forum....
But im not supporting her, just making my statement.
Matters of the hearth, and everything in Lord Vaders life comes down to that, are never easy to discuss.If you had your beloved one chocking you because you betrayed him, when you did not, how would you feel about that ?
Happy ?
Dont think so.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Azazel, how can you say you are not supporting Padme by your statement you are supporting her.
Padme did stab Vader in the back So to speak. During the trip from Curesant to Mustafar she obviously found out Obi-Wan climed on board. She did not try to stop Obi-Wan when he stood at the door way of the ship. Vader being Jedi trained could easily read her mind and felt that Obi-Wan wanted to kill him. Obviously she did not really mind that Obi-Wan was sent to kill Vader. Obi-Wan also admited to Padme when Obi-Wan said to Padme " He ( Vader) has become a grave threat. She then what Obi-Wan was going to do. She said it to Obi-Wan's face in the very same sceen. How would you like your so called wife helping an assin come to kill you. If you could choke her you would.
If you side with Padme on this one than you side with Obi-Wan. If you side with Obi-Wan than you side with the Jedi not the Sith. May be you should concider changeing your tittle to Jedi Azazel. Do not worry, Darth Sidious welcomes both Jedi and Sith.
What do you mean you like Padme but does not concern this board? This is a Star Wars board so it would be in tune here since a lot of people love Padme on Hyoerspace. They are useualy in the Jedi camp though. All of UJA loves Obi-Wan and they can say it so I am sure you are most certianly allowed to state why you love Padme. You can even make a whole web site devoted to her. I am sure Nateli Portman would feel honored. She may be an actress but still human and your praise will be welcome.
It is clear that neither side will convince the other on this arguement since I love Anakin/ Vader and side with his whole trip to the dark side. Why else do you think I chose the Sith instead of the Jedi. Love means you are locked on and will not budge and neither will I. That is the nature of love to be loyal to the other no matter what someone else says.

Last thing If Vader were to kill me he would be doing me a favor. Why do I say that because I fell in love with the Archangel of death ( Shiva, Kali for you since you are male ) and look forward to death because I will be united with Him. I will be loved for once. The other side is far better than this anarchic sesspool of dog eat dog society. I like an orderly society. Where the government is big enough to keep the rable in line and inforce the laws. Remember we do consist of spirit. To quote Yodda " Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." The Sith believe we are spirit they just use both sides of the Force as Palpatine so told Anakin. To be dead is realy to be alive. This theam is in all religions. Only in athism is death truely negitive because you cease to exist. This life is all there is.
Since I am not an atheist, death is prefered. Do not get this confused with desires of suicide because millions of years of evolution has insured that I am not self terminateing. I believe that the Force directed evolution which puts me in the believeing camp of religion. A true atheist believes when you are dead you are dead and that evolution happened by acident and there is no Force or consious being directing evolution. If you saw my web site, though I do not dwell on death, I do admit to being in the lover camp and therefore welcome it.

[Azazel]

Uh, that was a big post.
Let me see if i can expose my idea...Im not a native english speaker, as you all must have noticed by now.
Well, Padme is the focus here.
I really dont wanna cope with obi-wan, and even less to join the jedi, blagh...
As i told before, Love is the key element on Vader´s life, and wheter we like it or not, padmé has a huge part in that.
If not for her, he would never had taken the path of the dark side, even if indirectly, and that is a absolute point, and Palpatine, knowing it, used that to slowly bring skywalker into the dark side, and in the very end, its the son Vader had with Padme, that made him return to "the light".
I strongly believe that, ( and im not saying it is a good thing) padmé believed that Obi-wan could recall Anakin back into the path of the Jedi, and that is why she allowed him to come aboard the ship. Its easy to see that even Obi-wan was restraining himself from killing Vader, after all, they are the good guys filled with hope for a better tomorrow.
The liking of Padme is only a carnal issue, nothing else.

I supose you can consider dying as the passage for a better and higher lever, but thats the Karmic way of seeing things, and ( in this case its your turn) a jedi kinda thing.
I dont see any sith be willing to die, first of all because there would be a great deal of things left to do, people to mislead, jedi´s do lightdaber, etc, on this side
Secondly, and if all the karmic theory is correct, the sith woulndt be going to some place/ lever higher. We are not simply not good boys....

And i dont entitle myself as darth azazel...
Its always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you, Mrs darth Vader.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

Obi-wan made it clear to Padme he was going to kill Anakin. Plain and simple, she sided with the guy going to killVader.
As to the Karma thing, I said nothing about Karma. It is a Free will thing! I chose Vader ( Shiva ) and Vader ( Shiva ) chose me, A mutual agreement. It is based on Sweedenborg. You fallow your loves when you die. If your loves leads you to another lover than that is where you will go. If your loves leads you to a firy pit than you will go there. That simple. You misunderstood me I said death is not a problem for me as it is with others. Until then I fight. So where is the Jedi in that. Also my begist dream is Revenge. Revenge is not allowed in the Jedi. Only the Sith gives you Revenge.
You say you do not speak english. I never knew. You do well for someone who says they do not speak it. Where are you from then? What country?

[Azazel]

I still think that saying is one thing, meaning is other, even for a jedi, and it is not known if obi-wan used a mind trick on her to persuade her to assist him...Wouldnt look good on jedi reputation...
Revenge, thats is such a sweet feeling, the one that kept me alive, and brought me to the dark side.
But is it the sith way to follow one´s love to a fire pit ??
I always tought self preservation comes first.May be mistaken on that.
I didnt tell i didnt speak it, i told it wasnt my native language. I speak 4 languages, a versitile sith...eheheh
Ask the admin if he knows from were the chelsea coach is from. im from that same country.A 800 year old country, not many in the world...

[Seti-I-Shadim]

Mrs. Vader: As I read the last few posts I have been rather amazed. Or rather perplexed would be a better term.

During the trip from Curesant to Mustafar she obviously found out Obi-Wan climed on board.

And how is this obviously? He was hiding in a cubicle after all! There was 1 human and 1 droid on the craft. This would seem to be a assumption on your part. Also, when she sees Obi wan at the craft door she yells, "No!" Her reaction did not indicate "Ha! Ha! Now I betray my husband at last!" (Followed by diabolical laughter.)lol

She did not try to stop Obi-Wan when he stood at the door way of the ship.

And what exactly was she to do? Take out HER lightsaber and battle him unto the death? Really, she just found out her husband has become a Sith, and has killed children, democracy is dead, the jedi temple is on fire, etc. on top of everything else she is pregnant. So she would have valid reasons to be confused to say the least. Of course, she looks at both in horror & knows she can do nothing.

If you side with Padme on this one than you side with Obi-Wan. If you side with Obi-Wan than you side with the Jedi not the Sith. May be you should concider changeing your tittle to Jedi Azazel.

Sorry but these are either/or logical fallacies. If you agree with Padme's point of view, and I do, it does not make you a Sith or a Jedi: it just makes you someone that agrees with and understands her POV. It is not a black and white issue. But then again, it never really is. :maul4:


Seti

[Azazel]

Well, good to know someone thinks a bit like I do.
I too tought that Padme didnt knew obi-wan was on board, but i didnt had the absolute certantie, so i hide that thing.( only saw the movie once , ok, i admit it).
All in all, it was obvious that she had no real participation on the final duel between Vader and Obi-wan.

[diana]

am I posting in the right spot? (being new makes it hard, sorry if it's in the wrong place.)
this is in response to the discussion of vader's suit and why palpatine didn't put him in a bacta tank.
My view is very different than the ones I read. I think palpatine believed that he needed to distance his apprentice from the Jedi as much as possible. I man turned once can easily turn again, this is why traitors are so often killed, they can't be trusted. Palpatine may have decided to put Vador in the suit to make the point of his fall to the dark side drive home in Vador's mind. To make his change more physical and tangible for him to know it more fully. Yes he had killed many Jedi at this point including younglings, but it is possible that he could be turned back at this point (and he eventually does go back). It is out of fear and malice that Vador was placed in the suit. Whether bacta would have been helpful at this point is immaterial in my thoughts.
What do you all think about this idea? Was I clear on it?

[Darth-Trayer]

am. this is why traitors are so often killed, they ?


Hey, im not so sure I like that thought

[Azazel]

Hey, im not so sure I like that thought

Aahhaha.dont fear Trayer, unless you have any reasons for it...

And why should Lord Palpatine fear the jedi in that particular point of history ?
Most of them were already dead, and the very few sourviving ones, simply could not face and defeat the forces of the empire, order 66 dealt with it, and Anakin fixed the remainig ones on the jedi temple...
And Vader only turned sides to save his son, and fullfil his destiny, and after the batlle with Obi-wan, he was mutch too in rage to turn sides again.
Besides that, no bacta tank could heal all the injuries Lord Vader suffered.

[diana]

Oh, I didn't mean that he feared the Jedi's hold on him, per say, just that he was being efficient. He showed great effiecincy and planning in brining down the republic did he not? And he had many things up his sleave in the event of an emergency did he not? For instance he had an army created, and had his plans timed perfectly for the army to be needed. He worked with precision throughout his plan otherwise it never would have worked.
What I meant by keeping Anakin distanced from the jedi teachings is that he is erasing all doubt from his mind as he set Vader on his new course.

[Darth-Trayer]

Yes, Palpatine had a very good plan, and many different possibilities, to get Anakin, if not through Padme, though making Anakin doubt the Jedi way, and who knows how many more.

and a norther thing, i just recently have gotten a chance to see the first one again,(it had been some wile) I never noticed how creepy Palpatine's smile was when moved up into office. I honesty thought I was going fall over, laughing. It is the only time I have seen him, that....happy. It looked like he can barley control himself. Something I haven't ever see in him before.

Trayer

[Azazel]

Even a dark lord of the Sith is entitled some moments of fun...He also laughs when hes zapping mace windu...actualy he is a jolly fellow.
Most sith are.

[diana]

Jolly? I think you and I have different definitions of 'jolly' in mind. :roll:

[Azazel]

Its natural that is like that, we are diferent people.
your a jedi wanna be, im a Sith.

[Darth Opacus]

Palpentine obiviously had some reason for putting Vader in the suit. Whether it be that he wanted to "distance" Anakin from the Jedi even further or the fact that the bacta wouldn't have healed his wounds. I think it is much simplier than that. Fear. That is why Palpentine put him in the suit, to inspire fear. Fear leads to the dark side, what is more scary than a huge man in a black suit with a helmet that looks like Death and breathes like that????

[Azazel]

My toughts exactly, i defended that same idea before.

[Darth Opacus]

Great minds think alike...