Shades of Dark?

[Empress Palpatine]

A Strange thought came to me the other day about something that was staring me in the face, but I never thought about it. I was playing the Episode 3 game, running through passageways lightsabering like crazy. Droids is one thing, but later you lightsaber living persons. It is a game and I take it as such; it is not real killing. But what if it were? It does sort of give you a feel of what it might be like to be in that galaxy weilding a lightsaber. This conversation took place in my meditation:

Me: "Wouldn't it be a bit drastic and too shocking to suddenly go kill the people you used to work beside?"

Palpatine: "Did you ever kill anyone at any time for any reason?"

Me: "No."

Palpatine: "Then such a thing would be a drastic and shocking leap to you, but it would not be to someone who has killed under orders many times before. Anakin had gotten used to killing, and it was the Jedi who got him used to it. The mere fact that the Jedi use weapons or kill anyone at all for any reason has a certain darkness in it; even if they say it is for a good cause. It would only take a nudge to make that Jedi a little darker. It is only a matter of degree really."

Me: "Than what would pure Light be?"

Palpatine: "A temple full of non-combatant meditators just listening to the Force and living in its presence."

Me: "But what use would they be as far as doing good and protecting?"

Palpatine: "Not much, actually. The fact is even the 'good' people mix Light and Darkness. If they didn't, nothing would get done. Sith....Jedi....It is a matter of degree."

(I did have a hat once that said 51% Jedi 49% Sith; Don't push it!)

[Azazel]

Interesting toughts.

[Master Thompson]

Remember, taking a life to preserve yours is different from taking a life just because your bored. Meaning, if you are taking lives to survive, your rational is going to be quite different from the later.

[Mrs. Darth Vader]

If I may Master Thompson, I think Empress Palpatine is refering to the fact that the jedi are trained simular to soldiers in the military. In the military you are sometimes orderd to kill. You can be orderd to kill someone that is not a threat to you. This point is made more clearly in the movie "The Last Sameri". Tom cruise is orderd to kill a group of innocent American Indians because his commander said so. This happened in real life it is called Viet Nam.

In Star Wars it is only hinted at because when Anakin kills the unarmed Dukoo, Obi-Wan praises him for that action just before Anakin is to leave Obi-Wan to go with the politicians. This scene is towards the beginning of the movie. In real life I have met many Viet Nam Vets that admit that they have nightmares and wakeing visions and when this happens they go into an altered state and believe they are back in Nam and can easilly kill if not snaped out of that state.

[Master Thompson]

Mistress Vader...

If you will allow me several moments here...

How can a former soldier lose his or her mind momentarily and act out? Very easy and it it’s even easier to explain. DUALITY!

That’s it…there is a unresolved duality that develops within ever soldier due to the methodical and systematic eradication of individual thought and purpose and the development of collective thought and purpose, let me explain. Most times soldiers are recruited and trained when they are very young, before they have even had a change to have their first in anything we as adults take for granted, they are learned to wage war.

As a former Soldier I completely understand and respect the process of taking and giving orders, even when the order is to kill. Years ago, I would have followed those orders because I was training and conditioned to do so. Today, older, experienced and having been in the world long enough, I would follow those orders today (IF IN UNIFORM) but not without conviction.

As human beings we are okay with decisions and the actions related that are at times, lacking in ethics, morality & character if the action serves a great good. It is easy to fire your weapon across a field while in a uniform amongst a group dressed and trained to do the same for an institution/country that you have sworn your allegiance to. Vietnam...I am not going to touch that because those soldiers got the raw end of the deal on multiple levels.

Let's a brief look at what book camp really is and does...

(1) High school - The angriest yet best years of a human beings life. Your body and its chemistry is in peak condition, your mind is still impressionable...moldable.

(2) Recruitment Conditioning - Your recruiters will spend weeks pre-conditioning your idea about the military and service to the country. They will buddy up to you and your family, take you to football games, get you out of school early and take you to movies all the while preaching unit, core, country and GOD.

(3) Boot Camp - You leave your comfort zone, your natural environment where things are familiar to you. The shock of leaving home on your own for the first time around strangers in a strange place with rules is extremely mind-numbing. That along almost makes you ready for conditioning as you are hoping, praying for a kind face, soothing voice to take direction from.

What you get is a shock to your system. As soon as your bus arrives, D.I's (Drill Instructor's) are screaming at you get dismount the bus. You are in formation receiving a steady barrage of insults and commands; you are scared shitless to even think straight. Those of you that are not singled out for disciplinary action are marched over to processing where you receive your uniform and gear. You receive your standard issues eye glasses and haircuts.

You are all dressed the same...

You all look the same...

Individuality in action is now a memory and your individual thought process is now a under the command of the United States Armed Forces.

You are housed in a barracks with at least 30 other of your brothers and sisters in arms of whom you don't know. You learn extremely quick to be guarded and private right off the bat. Here, Fear is truly your best friend. Fear...fear is what keeps you strong, keeps you active and in the game 24/7. Fear of being singled out, fear of failing, fear being embarrassed, fear of letting down your unit and D.I.'s.

You talk, you act and you live in a proficient, orderly military manner.

You are wake up in the morning and you training, praising the unit, and the service you are in. You take classes and learn how to execute the role of a soldier all the while; praising the unit and service you are in. You begin to remember what you have learned; you begin to rebuild yourself in the mold in which they have constructed. A lean and mean fighting machine. You are taught to never, never question orders and to always obey. The preservation of the United States under GOD is all that matters.

You start to make friends, form relationships with other soldiers. All with the same and ideology and the same philosophy. Your training becomes less then training and more of second nature. You have learned been taught to soldier long before you had a chance to become a young WOMAN or a young MAN. You have learned to kill before you have even had sex in most cases. You are taught to fire an M-16 and to hit a moving target at over 150 yards long before you have even had a chance to experience your first love.

(4) Graduation/Pass & Review - You take some final tests and you are now a soldier in this man's army. You are given and oath in which you promise to defend the constitution of the United States against all her enemy's foreign and domestic.

(5) A.I.T (Advanced Individual Training,) - Here you are shipped off to learn your M.O.S or Military Operational Specialty. You will live as a somewhat normal person on a base learning your individual trade under the rules and regulations of a U.S. Soldier. You will spend 10 hours a day in uniform, saluting and follow the customs and courtesy’s of the military. If you are sent in-country to an active theater of operations, most likely you are sent straight into combat where you are now putting your training to work. I can tell you this, as the first round goes pass your face or over your head, there is a moment where you ask yourself, HOW THE HELL DID I GET HERE? How did I wind up here? Before what would have been your normal emotional and physical responses kick in, your training takes over.

Think about that!!!!

Before you can even get scared and **** your pants, you are already in what's called "prone position" locking and loading your weapon, taking aim to return fire. We haven't even formed an opinion about life and death except from what we were taught from experienced and seasoned soldiers that taught us. Before I have even contemplated the mystery's of the universe, I know how to execute a parallel ambush.

When you look back to ask yourself who are you, your minds answer is non-existent...there is no inner voice to help you because you truly don't know.

So in this winded and brief look at a soldiers life do you see the Jedi? I don't, because a Jedi is taught to acknowledge and understand by way of mental, physical and mostly metaphysical training the mystery's of the self and universe. Soldiers do not get this benefit for it they did, very few would pull the trigger Mistress.

It is only after you leave the service and only after you have experienced a great deal of life do you find your past ideals and codes to be a shock even to yourself. How could I have ever pulled that trigger and not really know why? Defense you say? That is irrelevant because as soon as your boots hit foreign soil soldiers loyal to their country see you as an invader...you are defending yourself by default. This argument of self defense in war is absurd! Self defense in war is when someone invades the US and WE have to defend our way of life our culture. Not when we are sent to another country for some **** talking Politian’s agenda.

The Jedi are metaphysical warriors trained in the deadly arts of battle but taught to ask why and seek alternatives to fighting and war. A soldier’s job is to follow orders and not ask why they are being ordered to kill and destroy.

You gave an example of the Vietnam War, here you had a war being fought on various fronts between various groups. We in concert with the South Vietnamese fought against the North Vietnamese, the Viet-Kong & various other indigenous and non-indigenous groups. Our own Government was our soldiers worst enemy! Not to get on a history lesson here but look at it like this…the first official battle between the NVA and the USA was with between the famed Seventh Calvary (Gen. George Armstrong Custer know for the battle of Little Big Horn). How the hell did they think the rest of the war was going to turn out?

Jedi are not soldiers…far from it! The examples I provide are a point of view by stepping back and looking at the experience from a different perspective. I love my country and I love every brother and sister serving and or in uniform. But when it comes to our combat training; it takes a experienced and open mind to in hindsight see the asylum style therapeutics in it’s methodology, it is what it is…a system of various forms of mental, physical and character altering programming designed to immediately replace individualism with collective thought and purpose thus giving birth to duality.

[Empress Palpatine]

You are describing brainwashing basically. That armies are armies, that it is the same as being in the army under Hitler.

I think it comes up as an issue in the context of the Jedi in the movie. They wanted young children (very young) so they could program them. Combat was a big part of what Jedi do.

The kind of Jedi you are, Master Thompson, is not the same. In our world, a person who is older can join Jedi because they like what a Jedi is. It is more like joining a church. Most of the Jedi on earth do not even use weapons. Lightsabers are props not real weapons. It is more philosophical. We spend hours on message boards, not in training rooms learning how to kill more effectively using the Force and a deadly lazer blade that can cut through flesh like butter.

Even for most Sith it is a more philosophical affair. Many are not trained killers like Darth Maul. I think, however, the ranks of the Sith may have more people who have actually killed. I have seen many soldiers log onto Sith forums, and after the way you describe the nature of the army, I can see why. It is a surprise that you chose Jedi; although I'll bet the reason you did is that you think negatively of the way the military is and wish to purge yourself of that brainwash.

I guess George Lucas was making a statement about the nature of the ways of the military when he showed clone troopers, persons bred and programmed to accept any order without question.

[Master Thompson]

Empress, that was pretty insightful.

Yes, in hind-sight I saw the big picture and wanted to make peace with my personal duality.

You are also correct in that the Jedi sought out children while still impressionable. But remember, while training a child in the art of combat, conditioning the physical and mental systematically over time is a form of brain washing, they had a higher purpose and reason to do so. These were not ordinary children, these were children that had the potential to harness and manifest great power. You are in essence attempting to tame a wild animal in a sense (not saying Jedi or Force wielders are animals mind you,) and doing while the child is young is the best way for the child to not form a duality that probably will cause problems for the person and people around he or she. Most Sith come to the teachings of the Sith either as former Jedi or talented teens and youngsters. They have already formed their character traits, their threshold for reason and morality have already been established. Now trying to train them to forget, what they have learned by way of experience is where the duality forms, the comfusion sets in and inner turmoil reigns supreme. I can see the rational for grabbing children early for their own protection as for the protection of those around them; but once you have them, you must re-allocate and re-educate idealism, ethics, morality and philosophy. To do this you must employ training methods that might be viewed as exteme. Besides, Darth Sidious is a great example. From my reading, born strong int he Force, he started out as a moral and sensative man. Born to good and just parents that declined to give him over to the Jedi Order when he was a toddler, it wasn't until he was in his twenties when he was confronted with a series of unfortunate and life changing events that changed his life forever. Everything he grew up know about people and behavior when right out the window thus allowing the later part of his duality to comsume him.

I came to the teachings of the Jedi for various reasons but specifically I wanted to lift and illuminate my understanding of the world and the universe. I wanted not to just make sense and peace with my existance but seek to touch a piece of the great mystery that lay beyond.


I don't think really don't think negatively about the military; again, it is what it is. You have to do a job and you have to be trainined to do it. Clearly our methods of training is what makes the armed forces the formidable force it is in the world today. However the pyschological price that those members of the armed forces have to pay is where I take issue.

[Empress Palpatine]

I think what is the case is that a degree of darkness is unavoidable due to necessity. Armies are neccessary. No country can do without them as a defence, and yet the process of training soldiers has darkness in it. Even the killing done by various Jedi can be deemed neccessary, and yet there is darkness in having to yeild to that neccessity. Sith...Jedi...it may be a matter of degree more than of kind.

By the way, this young life of Palpatine, which book is that?

[Master Thompson]

The story of Palpatine/Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine is a story witten by a Star Wars writter independately and I don't know if it has been endorsed by Lucas Arts.

[Empress Palpatine]

There was one about Palpatine having been in the navy (that galaxy's equivalent). I vaguely recall someone mentioning it, but I do not remember the title.

So are you saying that this particular story is by a fan? Does anyone know who? Darth Sideous, do you know?